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Chick-fil-A: Evil Empire or Free-Speech Victim?

Nutrition Facts: Serving size: 1 blog, Servings per container: 1, Calories: 0, Calories from fat: 0

Ingredients: marriage (equality, traditional, Biblical), boycott, Dan Cathy, Chick-fil-A, high fructose corn syrup, Rahm Emanuel, Thomas Menino, monosodium glutamate, contains less than 2% of: humor, Red #5, snouts, knuckles

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In case you’ve been vacationing in Antarctica or just now awoke from a long-term coma (welcome back! thanks for making my blog a top priority), you’ve probably heard that Chick-fil-A is evil because it hates gays. 

Chick-fil-A president Dan Cathy has publicly stated that he believes supporting gay marriage invites God’s judgment down upon our heads. Under Cathy’s direction, the Chick-fil-A company has donated about $5 million to anti-gay organizations (including the infamous Exodus International) between 2003 and 2010, according to an article on The Huffington Post.

I disagree with Cathy. Vehemently. Ultimately, though, his opinions are of little consequence, as are mine. Everyone should be free to believe what they choose, and speak as they choose, no matter how much they are at odds with the prevailing political or cultural atmosphere. Companies too should be free to make whatever donations their leaders see fit.  However, individuals and companies alike need to take responsibility for their words and actions, and accept the consequences. One of those consequences is alienating potential customers. Another is alienating business partners, which has happened with The Jim Henson Company, which had been providing toys for Chick-fil-A’s kids’ meals.

I should boycott Chick-fil-A. Here’s my problem. I’ve never eaten at Chick-fil-A.  Not even once. Never even been inside one, even to use the bathroom or grab some napkins. No particular reason—just one of those things. So choosing not to eat there is a hollow gesture for me to make. 

But I do write.

If you’ve read my profile here or on www.leaanne256.wordpress.com, or some of my previous blogs, you’ll know I’m straight, Christian, conservative and a GLBT ally. Stop laughing, I'm serious! I think strong marriages make strong families, which result in a strong society. It’s love, support and commitment that make a marriage strong, not which type of genitals are involved and how they’re used.  We should be encouraging loving adult couples to make a public commitment to each other, to take that commitment seriously, and to stick to it. Our current culture of disposability is, I believe, the root cause of  many of the bad things in our society. But that cookie is on another day’s menu.   

As a conservative, I think the best government is one that stays out of the individual’s personal life as much as possible, and nothing is more personal than one’s thoughts and beliefs. Freedom of speech and religion (belief) should be protected for everyone equally, including those that are unpopular.

Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel apparently does not think those freedoms worth protecting. He has vowed to keep Chick-fil-A out of the city because of the company’s stance on marriage. Emanuel said, “Chick-fil-A’s values are not Chicago values…If you’re gonna be part of the Chicago community, you should reflect Chicago values.” 

Doesn’t that scare you? It scares me. Who is Emanuel to define what “Chicago values” are? Is the mayor’s office going to question every business in the city limits about its views on gay marriage, abortion, the death penalty, gun ownership—and then kick out or refuse permits to those that don’t agree with what one person decides are “Chicago values?”  And who’s to say it stops with businesses?  Non-profits, churches and even individuals are part of the community too.

This precedent of discrimination (yes, discrimination) is extremely dangerous. It’s fine as long as you agree with the person in charge. You just better hope you agree with that person 100% of the time, or your business could fall victim to the same fate as Chick-fil-A. Once you’ve given that kind of power to the government, you can’t take it back just because the next guy who gets elected supports one-man-one-woman marriage.

Boston Mayor Thomas Menino originally made statements similar to Emanuel’s, but he has since backed away from his threat. Menino still doesn’t want Chick-fil-A in Boston, but he admits it would be wrong to try to block it. The Boston Herald quotes Menino as saying, “I can’t do that. That would be interference to [Cathy’s] rights to go there.”

As even Menino grudgingly admits, the attempt to legislate thoughts and beliefs is unconstitutional and unethical. In the end, it does little but cause resentment, outrage and stubbornness among those who are the targets. That’s counterproductive. Minds and hearts are not changed by laws, they are changed by other minds and hearts. 

My mind and heart are going to eat in tonight.

Scott

6:25 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012

I agree that Dan Cathy has a wrong stance but should be allowed in the market place if local authorities and the community agree to have one. I won't spend my money there knowing that the owner is going to spend it on discrimination. I think Dan Cathy is making a horrendous mistake being so vocal about his personal views. Polls show that a growing number of Americans are accepting of gay marriage. Why would a businessman alienate a huge portion of the population and potential customers? I do think Chicago has a right to decide whether to let Chick-fil-A operate or not. It shouldn't be decided by the Mayor alone but by the people in the wards where Chick-fil-A wants to operate. It would be no different than excluding a stip club or a casino in your town because it doesn't reflect the values of your community. If Dan Cathy is going to publicly express his bigoted views then his store is then associated with that bigotry. If the people of Chicago don't want to associate themselves with the views of Dan Cathy they have a right to deny his business access to their neighborhoods.

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Josh

9:31 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012

I agree with the author of this blog. Scott, what you are saying is extremely dangerous. Comparing Chick-fil-A to operating a casino is apples and oranges. Determing whether Chick-fil-A gets to operate a franchise purely based on the political positions of its CEO is actually illegal and unconstitutional. It is general consensus among legal scholars that if Chick-fil-A is denied a business liscense in Chicago, then they'll have an excellent case in the courtroom based on first amendment rights. Business liscenses are denied based on zoning restrictions, traffic flow, congestion, wtc. NOT personal opinions. These are the reasons why strip-clubs and casinos are denied (even though decisions about casinos actually primarily rests with state lawmakers). Chick-fil-A does NOT discriminate against any customers or employees. Instead Chick-fil_a should be allowed to open, and if the local populace decides not to eat there because of the company's position, then more power to them.

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LMS

10:33 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012

Rahm Emanuel made some excellent points, especially in light of Chick-Fil-A's business practices, which you can get a glimpse of in this Forbes article from 2007: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0723/080.html It's a misleading oversimplification to boil this issue down to, "Individuals can think whatever they want, and government shouldn't interfere with business!" Unfortunately, this Cathy person has been shrewd enough to leave the hateful and discriminatory waters he's slithering around in murky enough that he probably would win a legal skirmish. On the plus side, his big mouth has let current and potential customers know where he and his company stand, and current and potential customers will have to think about exactly where their dollars might end up.

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Gary Gnatz

11:06 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012

Funny how success sometimes breeds contempt in any form or fashion ???

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LMS

7:27 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

Funny how hate and discrimination wrapped up in holier-than-thou religious fanaticism breed warranted contempt. Wait a minute...that's not funny at all.

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Daniel Laid Back Thompson

12:41 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

Funny how someone like our President felt the same way about 3 months ago... right.. oh yeah you people never thought of that. =p You all voted for a president that supported tradition marriage but ridicule someone else. Double standard applied. You hypocrites better think before shove that foot back in your mouth. ( I support traditional marriage myself, im not gay but feel that anyone else should have the right to what they desire ie gay marraige. ) Don't forget our freedoms, we can disagree, but that good 'ol first Amendment must not be trampled on.

Scott

4:14 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know if Chicago has any legal grounds to keep Chick-fil-A out of the city. Communities are just using zoning, traffic congestion, and other "problems" as excuses to keep casinos and strip clubs out when they really just don't want them there personally. I agree that customers can decide for themselves and will. If Chicago doesn't want Chick-fil-A then they will find a legal excuse to keep them out.

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Daniel Laid Back Thompson

12:45 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

It took over 3 years for that dunkin donuts to have all their permits approved to move in at their location at 59&catonfarm. And despite that they still haven't had their drive thru approved.. Legal tactics or just legal delay,paperwork and incompetence can really trip businesses up =/

Marilynn Reinhardt

8:38 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

You can't compare a Chick-fil-A restaurant to a strip club or casino. Aren't American ideals based on having the freedom to think differently and not be persecuted for them? The good Mayor's stance is just as bad as what he's accusing Mr. Cathy of espousing. Let the restaurant open. If you don't want to support the business, then don't. What's the big deal? Last I heard, it's "Mayor" Emanuel...not "Imperial Ruler" Emanuel. This may work in North Korea, but this is America!

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Brad Drake

8:52 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

The United States used to be a country where you could freely express your opinion on a given subject. If your opinion was in the minority of public opinion or in the majority of public opinon you were always still free to voice it. The repercussions it had were usually based on the community's reaction, either negative or positive. It immediately wasn't judged by a government. It was the people that decided and informed the government of what they wanted. For an elected official to immediately condemn a business based on an opinion of it's operating officer is wrong. If the local people of the community don't want a business in their community because of the beliefs of an operating officer, they reserve that right. Where do we draw the line however, what truly is right or wrong? If a Muslim community doesn't want a Catholic church built in their community, are they now condemned as bigots and people of hate? If a Christian community doesn't want a sex shop in their community, are they condemned as bigots and people of hate? The straight fact of the matter is that this operating officer expressed his opinion of being anti-gay, an opinion he has every right in this free country to express. If the community in Chicago, or wherever else, does not want his restaurant in their community because of that opinion then they also reserve the right to exercise their freedom of expression. However, labeling this man a bigot because of his personal opinions (continued)

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Brad Drake

9:00 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

and immediately condemning his business as an agent of hate is not what this country once stood for, and should still stand for. When Lauren Hill expressed her opinion that she was disgusted that white people bought her albums was she immediately condemned by the mayor of Chicago as a racist and not allowed to perform in the city? No. When John Rocker expressed his contempt for New York subway travel and made racial comments towards the people on those subways was he banned from playing in the city of New York? No. So why is this different and who is this mayor to immediately react this way? This is supposed to be a free society where you can express your opinions, not a dictatorship where there is only one way to think.

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Olddeegee

1:26 pm on Saturday, July 28, 2012

You get to say what you want. But if you say something I don't like I won't buy your products and I can use my free speech to ask everybody else not to buy your products. The Mayor and the Alderman are elected officials who were chosen because of their beliefs, if you don't like what they say, don't vote for them. See, that's how it works, you can stop crying now.

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Nick Beam

10:52 am on Wednesday, August 1, 2012

Lauryn Hill never said that, it's an urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/lauryn.asp

John Rocker was raked over the coals for those comments. It was the beginning of the end for his career. He was booed relentlessly and had fans throwing batteries and beer at stadiums to the point he had to be escorted with security guards.

This isn't a free speech issue Brad, it's a "decisions have consequences" issue. Feel free to say what you want, but it will have a consequence.

Russ

9:10 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

Prejudice is prejudice and discrimination is discrimination. Most cities have a non-discrimination policy. It's not shades of gray, it's millions of dollars spent to hate a sizable segment of our population…which they collect from the money YOU spend at THEIR restaurants regardless of YOUR beliefs. In my opinion, it's really reaffirming to see city officials take a stand and say, "We don't want that to happen here."

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Daniel Laid Back Thompson

12:53 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

No such thing as total tolerance idiot. You support abortions? gay marriage? Then you discriminate against many religious groups, and traditional marriage and pro life groups. And vise versa. Your just another angry anti-"traditional values" kinda guy because thus far the only debate is that the company "privately owned" is making a statement you don't view the same about? You don't like it, don't eat there, its that simple...

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Frank A

7:47 pm on Monday, August 13, 2012

Belief in your faith is not hate. Prejuduce is pre-judging - meaning a position without merit or rational thought. A Christian following his or her faith is not pre-judging. In fact, there are thousands of years of history and sacred teachings on the subject. And when you use the terms "prejudice" and "discrimination", I suppose you are not meaning these terms in a literial way, but instead to connote an illegitimate discernment. I don't attend a mosque - or eat chocolate - so in that way I have 'discriminated' (i.e chosen). It does not mean I hate memebers of their faith, or chocolate lovers, it means that I have elected a differntly. In the case of homosexuality my faith teaches it is a sin. I know that many people believe that there is no God, there is no such thing as right and wrong, and that we should all do whatever we want. I'm not one of those people - not because I hate - but because I take my faith seriously. If you want to argue that adherance to tradtional Christian thought is wrong -- that's fine. But its not irrational hatered. There, I've done it, I have 'discriminated' (i.e. chosen) to reject your view.

Brad Drake

9:31 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but can someone explain to me why it is "hate" to not agree with homosexuality? If you're not harassing someone, if you're not physically hurting someone, why are you not allowed to disagree with a given subject? What happens when 10 years from now, as in Amsterdam, when people want to start marrying their pets? Is everyone going to be a bigot and a person of hate because they don't agree with it?

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Olddeegee

10:14 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

Just as it's wrong to discriminate against people who's religion/birthplace/skin is different, if you can't see the difference, you might be a bigot.

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Daniel Laid Back Thompson

12:56 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

Its simply playing the victim card. Then folding all of another persons moral standards/beliefs and bigoted hatred. Its pathetic, i dont care what people choose to do. You dont answer to me, or me to you.

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Sam Kikiacs

7:50 pm on Thursday, August 16, 2012

It makes you a bigot because you are denying civil rights to a group of people for no reason beyond who they like. It's not like you're disagreeing with someone's political views or favorite movie. You're disagreeing with who they are physically attracted to. It is the definition of bigoted. I'm not sure where you got the idea that you have to harass or physically hurt someone to be a bigot.

gini lester

9:43 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

I understand what you write. Freedom of speech is good, Cathy has that right. I support anyone's right of free speech, even those who say things I don't agree with.
If Cathy donated money to a hate group like the KKK and bragged about it, what would you write? Is his organization donating money to groups that have been classified as hate groups? Do you know?

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Adrianne

9:46 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

Several points: Mr. Cathy was expressing his personal opinions to a Baptist publication, so who was so upset by his views that they dug up an article/interview for a church publication to use against him? And, what hidden agenda do they have? There must be some reason to attempt to ruin a business. Next, even if we ignore the illegality of what they are doing, why are the aldermen and mayors taking out their disagreement with the business owner's views on the franchisee? Also, Chick-Fil-A ended their agreement with Henson's Muppets prior to Henson announcing that their toys would no longer be used at Chick-Fil-A. Last, but not least, why is it all right for Louis Farrakhan, with his anti-Semitic views, to march in Chicago to stop gun violence, but not for a franchisee to open a restaurant that will serve anyone, hire anyone, etc.? What has happened to our country - we should all start thinking about the fact that the government is intruding into every facet of our lives and this story illustrates it perfectly!

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Olddeegee

10:12 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

I refuse to do business with anybody who discriminates against the rights of anyone by advertising that you hate their lifestyle. I disagree with their religious practices and now their stance against marriage rights has solidified my decision. If the people who elected the Alderman don't agree with him, they can vote him out. He spoke out for a position that he believes his constituents support. If he's your Alderman, and this angers you, vote against him. If you believe in discriminating against people, eat all of their crappy chicken you want, and vote for him. There, was that so hard?

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Daniel Laid Back Thompson

1:00 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

Are you done, b/c nobody care what your going to "do" by not going there. And their chicken is delicious.

Dawn

10:23 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

I would like Rahm to give a statement saying exactly what Chicago represents so we know what we are allowed to believe. He is so far over the line on this one. What ever happened to I don't agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it???? Cathy was asked a question and answered that question. The media is the one that took off with this and they may be surprised where it leads. If Henson wants to pull his Muppet toys that is his right. If you don't want to eat at Chik-fil-a that is your right. To ban them from a city because the owners are Bible believing Christians? They never said they wouldn't serve someone or made anyone feel uncomfortable in their establishments. You are free to do what you want or believe what you want which is the bases of our freedoms. My family will be eating at Chik-fil-a next Wednesday and I would do this if I was gay or atheist because I stand up for their rights.

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Daniel Laid Back Thompson

1:08 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

Our Rights, your the first one so far with an argument on the right topic. The situation around our first amendment rights in this case is so volital some don't see what they are actually arguing for or against.. We cannot have our gov't tell us or "ban" us because of whatever we say/believe that we lose our freedom of speech and other inalienable rights.

Lea Anne Stoughton

10:31 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

Thanks for all your comments! Update: Emanuel today has backed away from his comments, echoing Menino in Boston. He still objects to the restaurant opening in Chicago, but defers action to the alderman of that district. Also, the ACLU has come out in support of Chick-Fil-A for exactly the same reasons I put forth.

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Brandon Andreasen

10:35 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

I think everyone is missing the bigger point of all of this: Chik-Fil-A isn't very good! It's been mythologized as this legendary chicken place by people who visited the south in their younger days in the same way that White Castle has been mythologized by late night drunks.
Here is an idea, why not visit a local place to get your chicken on a bun fix? Chunky Chicken. Chicken N Spice.

Also, technicaily, Mr. Cathy can say what he wants because Chik-Fil-A is not a publicly traded company. He never says these things if he has share holders to answer to.

I agree with those who say it's wrong to discriminate against the LGBT community, though. If he had come out and said he was anti-black people at his store, hell would quite literally have broken loose. Religious based discriminatory practices have no place in today's society.

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Edward Andrysiak

9:57 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Brandon..."Chick-A fil isn't very good"...so say you. Tell me then why they have about 1600 sites selling their product? And, did you see all those people standing in line to get some of the "not so good" food from such a bad company. Me thinks you sir are a bit out of the main stream in your thinking. This wasn't about food in the first place was it.

Julie Ferenzi

11:15 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

Lea Anne, I think you said what I have been struggling to put into words. So many people only show "tolerance" when it favors or mirrors their own beliefs, yet when tested we see how very INTOLERANT some people can be when it makes them uncomfortable.

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Brandon Andreasen

11:16 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

Wait, what? Why can't ALL people be tolerated!!!!

Holly

11:26 am on Friday, July 27, 2012

I, like the author of this article, am a straight, conservative, Christian - and supportive of gay people having the same rights as straight people.

I also LOVE ChickFilA. I love their food. I love that the people that work there are the kindest, happiest group of food workers I have ever encountered. I also love most things about the Christian values they generally try to follow. It's refreshing, usually. And you absolutely have the right to not go there, and organize boycotts.

I don't agree with what Mr. Cathy said. (He also doesn't agree with divorce, note he specifically stated that he and his executives are married to their FIRST wives. I'm divorced, and it doesn't offend me that other people think divorce is wrong). But I DO think he absolutely has the right to say it. And corporations have the right to fund whatever groups they want. I actually wish more companies were more transparent with what organizations they support. I actually admire the balls on this guy.

However, politicians shouldn't have the supreme power to block businesses if the brass of that business doesn't agree with what that particular politician thinks.

Please keep in mind, too, that each restaurant is an independently owned franchise. For example, I believe the current city of Chicago location actually donates some of the franchise profits to LGBT causes.

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Carol Cawvey

1:23 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

Are any of you aware that a Chik-fil-a is scheduled to open in Bolingbrook this fall? I agree with Holly, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It is our right to be able to take a stand for or against just about anything. If Cathy doesn't like Gays, that is his right. If you don't want to eat at his restaurants because of his stand on Gays, that is your right too. What is wrong is either of you trying to foist your opinions on others. Let them decide for themselves. Most Chik-fil-as are individually owned. Yes, Cathy does get a profit but that individual franchise owner has invested a lot in that place.So, you aren't only hurting Cathy but that franchise owner and all of his/her employees too. Think about that, would you?

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Bonnie

1:34 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

Are they giving away any food to the first 100 people in line at the grand opening? FREE FOOD TRUMPS ANY PERSONAL BELIEFS!

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Brandon Andreasen

3:53 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

Tolerance is the allowing of people's opinions that differ from one's own. Nobody is saying that religion needs to go away.. Everyone is allowed to have their religious beliefs. To be pro abortion doesn't necessarily mean that you are intolerant of pro-lifers. You can respect the opinion of those who you don't agree with.

You are allowed to disagree with someone's sexual orientation based on your faith, but you have to remember that many, many people respect the rights of people with alternative lifestyles.

The goal for the lot of us who write here is to create an open forum for conversation both on the pro and con side. Daniel, by referring to someone else as an idiot for having a belief that doesn't agree with you is intolerant. It's also against commenting rules to be offensive to another member of the site.

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Concerned

10:47 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Well said! Some commenters in this thread are extremely disrespectful and it seems that they are not intelligent enough to state their opinions/beliefs without resorting to name calling.

abe carver

5:04 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

So when Rahm Emanuel was Chief of Staff for President Obama, at which time the President, similar to the Chick-fil-A's president Dan Cathy, openly supported the traditional definition of marriage, Emanuel expressed no similar dismay or concerns with the President's position to those he now expresses. Hmmmm, how very covenant! I guess Chick-fil-A's position on the matter must be of great import in Rahm's eyes than was President Obama's.

Government should not be involved in business of view point discrimination. PERIOD. However, we as citizens of this great nation, have the right to decide whether to patronize a business or organization for whatever reasons we desire. On that basis, I will be trekking over to my Chick-fil-A in Downers Grove for lunch on Aug 1 to show my support for their continued endorsement Christian principles. Man can try to redefine marriage however they desire, but that will never change the indelible parameters that God has ordained. So good luck with that,…yeah ultimately it did not work out so well for those involved back in Noah’s day either. Some folks just never learn.

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Craver-Vii

5:29 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

I see that people have strong opinions on both sides, but can anyone show me how Chick-Fil-A is exercising hatred? Dan Cathy doesn't control what the Bible says, but to be a biblically consistent Christian, he is conscience bound to support the traditional view of marriage. But still... is that actually hurting anyone? If all discrimination is hatred, then the Pepsi/Coke challenge is evil. And so is picking a favorite baseball team or rooting for your country in the Olympic games. So, someone please show me how eating sandwiches at Chick-Fil-A is cruel to people with a same-gender preference.

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Brandon Andreasen

5:41 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012

I'm not sure cruel is the proper word. If the head of a company says he is against gay marriage, then obviously that doesn't give off a very positive message to the gay and lesbian community. It's their option to not eat there, of course.

I think it's a business thing more than anything else. If I was running a business, I wouldn't want to make it known that my company is anti-gay, as it would cause an entire portion of society to not want to eat their food. Then again, I don't know Chik-Fil-A's profit margins off the top of my head, so maybe to them, it isn't that big of a deal.

As I said before, there is every chance this would be a bigger deal if the company was publicly traded on Wall Street. As it is now, the LGBT has to make a decision for themselves whether they want to continue eating there.

Me, I'll continue to not eat there, mostly because I don't find the food to be as good as Chicken N Spice, and the drive is equal for me.

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Lucy

11:09 am on Sunday, July 29, 2012

Right, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am a brunette. If I found out my favorite chicken places didn't like brunettes would I still eat there? Why not? THEY can't not serve me because of my hair color and I, while I wouldn't like their opinion, understand that it's their right to feel that way. If it bothered me that much then I would just go somewhere else, no big loss. People make way too much out of nothing.

Olddeegee

4:50 pm on Saturday, July 28, 2012

Why are churches allowed to not pay taxes? We should balance the budget by taxing all religions and churches. If religion believes that it can dictate how people can live, they should have to pay for the privilege. Why are we letting this mythology passed down from a bunch of middle-eastern sheep herders control anything in modern society? Those who hide behind religion are cowards who are incapable of accepting the realities of life.

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jaskie1505

8:58 am on Sunday, July 29, 2012

The answer is simple. If Cathy's remarks offend you don't support his business. If you don't care or support his remarks, then eat there. You vote with your dollars. If the store succeeds, then you know Cathy's remarks reflect those of the local community. If the store fails and has to close it's doors, then that will tell you about the beliefs of the local community.

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Lucy

11:03 am on Sunday, July 29, 2012

Personally I think people need to chill out and stop bringing politics into everything. Who cares? Live YOUR life the way YOU want to. Seriously, should we get the political views of every store/business owner before we shop there?? I could care less what the owner of Chick-fil-A believes in. If I wanted a chicken sandwich and I liked the restaurant I am going to go get one. So many people are SO offended when a group of people don't believe in the things they do. That's life. There is NO law in this country that stated all Americans must support gay marriage. There isn't. If your opinion is that it's wrong then that is OK. Just because someone else thinks it is doesn't mean you have to change your views. I thought this was a free country? I don't get into politics too much and thank goodness I don't. It creates monsters.

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gini lester

9:30 am on Friday, August 3, 2012

Sure it's a free country, but not all of us born in the United States enjoy full rights of citizenship. So you do whatever you want to do. You eat at that chicken place and with every bite you remember that you just gave money to an organization that uses it to try to keep me from legally obtaining full right of citizenship. And I am NOT talking about any kind of marriage right. I couldn't care less about fighting for a right that only benefits a portion of my lgbtq community.

Kyle Hitchens

9:55 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012

To clear it up-- LGBT activists are not boycotting Chick-Fil-A because they are against same-sex marriage. It's because they donate money to the organizations that compare us to pedophiles and zoophiles, saying we will molest children, telling us to repent or die, telling us that we should not get the same 1,000+ rights that "normal" couples get, and telling us that we are second class citizens. That's why it matters what chick-fil-a is doing. Ms. Stoughton claims Cathy's opinions "are of little consequence". Tell that to those on the receiving end of the organizations he helps fund, including some who try to "fix" gay people through "reparative therapy" which does significant harm to many people, including leading some to commit suicide. I'd call that a consequence.

I highly respect their right to free speech and to not support same-sex marriage. I DO NOT support organizations that pay into hate speech.
And don't even get me started on the disgusting, factory farm cruelty that does into "producing" chickens for this type of restaurant. Where is the "morality" in that?

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Lea Anne Stoughton

6:34 am on Monday, July 30, 2012

Opinions are of little consequence. They are only thoughts. Thoughts do not harm anyone. It's action that is significant.

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LMS

8:57 am on Monday, July 30, 2012

And Chick-Fil-A have taken the actions Kyle Hitchens mentions, in addition to actions that discriminate against women. I don't know how much more clear someone can be, and yet this cry of "Freedom of speech! People can think and say whatever they want!" keeps ringing out, obscuring the fact that people are upset over ACTIONS. That's the whole point. Anyone still confused should re-read Mr. Hitchens's comment, read the article I linked to above, read over the known details of the lawsuits brought against Chick-Fil-A over years, read further about the organizations Chick-Fil-A has donated money to, and...in general...become more informed before inexplicably repeating this same rallying cry over and over. It IS action that is significant. Yes! Exactly.

Mike Schauer

8:12 am on Monday, July 30, 2012

Well I am a liberal and proud to be one. And in regards to this matter. One cannot profess freedom of speech,unless one is willing to hear the opposite point of view. I do not agree with Cathy's views,and that is my right. And vice-versa. The simple solution is if you do not beieve in Chick-Fil-A stance just odn't go to it. To deny the business simply because you don't like their views is not right. Opinions are just that. It is the actions that are the problem. And so far I have not read where Chick-Fil-A has denied anyone of their rights.

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LMS

9:17 am on Monday, July 30, 2012

I'm guessing you haven't read the Forbes article I linked to waaaaay up at the top regarding Chick-Fil-A's sketchy hiring process, and how even with their stringent (and allegedly discriminatory) screening system they still get sued for discrimination, including the woman who has multiple witnesses to back up her claim that she was fired so she could be a stay-at-home mom. A small handful of liberal politicians did Dan Cathy a huge favor by deflecting attention from his discriminatory *actions* and unethical stances (which people so inclined have every right to protest) and giving news and social media an opportunity to create this huge, "Freedom of speech!" smokescreen. Yes, we all have freedom of speech. Even the--what....two? Three?--politicians who started posturing in the heat of the moment agree that we ALL, including Dan Cathy, have freedom of speech. Apparently we also have the freedom to discriminate, if we're really really careful and clever about it. Dan Cathy's gotten away with it relatively unscathed so far. He's no victim, and Chicago's efforts to keep Chick-Fil-A out (for a variety of cited reasons) started months before this latest media flap. The political grandstanding, if anything, made it impossible to keep Chick-Fil-A out. Oops. Again, Dan Cathy is no victim, and we're in agreement over freedom of speech.

Samuel McCallister

12:44 pm on Monday, July 30, 2012

Mr. Cathy is entitiled to Free Speech. No one disputes that. Mr. Cathy is entitled to donate money to groups he chooses. No one disputes that, either. However, don't be surprised that all people don't laud his piety when these groups he donates to espouse violence and discrimination against homosexuals. And don't be surprised that straight people who care about equal rights, and homosexual Americans and who are denied the same rights as straight people, conduct lawful protests against this man's business. The discrimination against gays costs us money, jobs, homes, and for some, their lives. Think this is overly dramatic? Ask Matthew Shepherd's mom. Google search "states where you can be fired for being gay" or "states where you can be denied housing based on orientation." Google "violence against gays" and see what returns appear. Perhaps the recent home invasion where three men broke into a lesbian's home, tied her up, and carved slurs into her stomach with a knife. What does that have to do with Mr. Cathy? Millions of dollars buys a lot of influence. And, when you spend millions of dollars to marginalize a group, and publicly say gays "invite God's wrath on America" it is hateful, unChristian, and invites unbalanced people to take cues from this and commit acts against the marginalized group. This is fact, and it is history, for more than just gays and lesbians. Marriage is a civil right. Think and say what you want, but please stop denying others their civil rights.

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Craver-Vii

12:58 pm on Monday, July 30, 2012

Can we have a civil discussion without demonizing those from a contrary position? Just because a person supports traditional marriage does not mean that they hate LGBT people. It is an unnecessary exaggeration to link Mr. Cathy's position to criminal violence. It is also inaccurate and unfair assumption to promote the LGBT agenda as civil rights, especially while that is an ongoing debate.

Pastor Suzanne Anderson-Hurdle

10:03 pm on Monday, July 30, 2012

While I agree that Mr. Cathy has the right to express his opinion and beliefs on this or any other subject and, as others have stated, we can do the same by not supporting his business, I also agree that these opinions can lead to destructive actions. Perhaps these actions are not done by Mr. Cathy or others who make these public professions but they are often done by others who read them or hear them.

As a Bible-believing Christian, I do not hate Mr. Cathy or any other person who disagrees with me on this or other issues. I suspect Mr. Cathy and others who think like him would deny that I can be a Bible-believing Christian, let alone a Bible-believing preacher, and support same-sex marriage. Honestly, none of us truly knows who is right and who is wrong on this. I hope I am right but I know there is always a possibility that I am wrong.

My faith, as strong as it is and as much of a part of my life as it is, is MY faith. It is not your faith or Mr. Cathy's faith and, though I will sometimes assert my faith in the public square, I know that it cannot be used as a justification for, or against, civil rights for all people in this country. For me, that is the bottom line. Will we truly believe and will hold the standard of "all men are created equal" and "equal justice under the law" or are they just words? Either we believe the words in the Pledge of Allegiance, "liberty and justice for all" are true and matter or we should stop saying them.

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Concerned

10:58 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Sadly, having been raised in the Baptist church (and left it after years of brainwashing), I can guess that Mr. Cathy most likely would deny that you can be a preacher AT ALL because you a woman.

Edward Andrysiak

9:54 am on Wednesday, August 1, 2012

Alot of interesting and valued reading here. Unfortunately, I think, too much attention and comment was directed in the wrong direction. The simple issue is...who the hell does the mayor of chicago think he is! It is he and his government that committed the first wrong here and most seem to be willing to give him a pass. This is really about misuse of governmental power.

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Francis M. Regan

7:55 pm on Wednesday, August 1, 2012

No to same sex marriage, eat a chick-fil-a!!!

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Francis M. Regan

8:47 pm on Wednesday, August 1, 2012

Pastor shame on you . You don't speak for me or my religion. No to same sex marriage.

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Lea Anne Stoughton

7:55 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Interesting, Francis. Pastor Suzanne never claimed to speak for your religion or faith. IN fact, she explicitly says it is HER faith she speaks for, not yours or anyone else's. She even says she may be wrong.

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Moe

8:40 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

I keep hearing, "Homosexual Americans are denied the same rights as straight people". What does that mean? I never knew that Straights and Gays had separate rights.

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Lea Anne Stoughton

9:12 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Moe: they don't have separate rights. What it comes down to is being treated equally under the law. Married couples have many benefits that are not extended to gay people (who are not allowed to marry each other in most places). Some are: the ability to make medical decisions for a spouse in an emergency; being able to visit a sick or injured spouse in the hospital; having visitation and custody for children in the case of divorce or death; not having to testify in court against a spouse; and automatic inheritance of property in the absence of a will. (A full list is available on Equality Illinois' web site: http://www.eqil.org/marriage.html.)

These are extended to married couples, and taken for granted by most. But because committed gay couples can't be married (to each other), they are excluded. Imagine the person you love is involved in a car accident and you can't even visit them before surgery. Or your child's other parent passes away, and the child is placed in foster care.

By the way: that list includes "negative" things too, like responsibility for the spouse's debts and the ability to divorce. Also, granting these benefits and responsibilities to same-sex couples through marriage will not in any way affect the benefits and responsibilities of straight couples.

jaskie1505

8:46 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

I think there are more important things to deal with in this world than what the President of Chick whatever thinks or believes. You have families starving all over the world. ( Guess if ChickFila sent food over there they should refuse to eat it and just die). You have issues in Syria, you have unemployment, the economy, etc etc. Yet people dwell on things that are way down the to do list. Sounds like our government. Let's do the easy things first and worry about the hard things later.

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Olddeegee

9:05 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Speaking out against anybody's lifestyle choice is wrong. In a few years, Chick-Fil-A will probably regret their stand. Attitudes are changing, and this will be an issue that will seem as wrong as any form of discrimination. I agree that Mr. Cathy has a right to speak his opinion as archaic as it may be, but I have a right to never purchase his company's product until they publicly change their stance.

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abe carver

9:30 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Keep dreaming Olddeegee. Chick-fil-A set a sales figures a world record yesterday, when customers formed huge lines across the country to show their support for the chain's defense of God's ordained definition of marriage. The moral majority will not be bullied into silence, this is just the tip of the iceberg, and the cultural elites and homosexual activists that want to redefine marriage and paint anyone who dares to disagree as intolerant bigots are in for a surprise!

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Olddeegee

10:42 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

abe- So, one day. Are the backward thinking going to eat there every day? It won't last, you'll die out. You are the past, and time moves on.

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abe carver

12:21 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Olddeegee, so perhaps you missed the point. Chick-fil-A does not need a continued massive show of support from the folks who ‘came out’ yesterday, in order to stay in business. The quality of their product in concert with their ethical business practices will see them through just fine. Any loss of business that may result from Cathy's comments will be truly insignificant. What I was referring to is that just because a small minority of society would like us all to believe they are the true standard bearers of enlightened thought, and can redefine morality for the rest of us "backward thinking" folks, is a fallacy, once again disproved by yesterday's record breaking turnout. If support for your side of the equation is so strong among the populace, then I would expect to see similar lines of protestors out in force at each Chick-fil-A across the country. Oh right, I guess they didn't get that memo. Similarly, the only place gay marriage has been enacted is in states where judges or liberal elites in the legislature have rammed it through against the wishes of the voters. Each state where it has been put to a popular vote, it has failed miserably! We may loose a battle, but in the end we will win. Speaking of dying out...you might want to check out the basics of reproduction, I think those in "traditional" marriages might just a advatage on you folks there as well. Mother Nature is sort of biased that way.

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Olddeegee

12:31 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

You seem to think that attitudes aren't changing. What was the average age of the people that purposely purchased food at CFA yesterday, I'd wager that the demographic isn't one that and business will rely on for very long.

Edward Andrysiak

10:09 am on Thursday, August 2, 2012

I have always thought that the gay community should be able to "
join" and have the same rights as any married couple. And, I think they would get a bit more respect if they stopped insisting their union be called a marriage. Call it something else! Now, why is that important? Because words mean something. Marriage translates to husband and wife. When a same sex couple can tell me how they introduce their "partner" to somone to telegraph that the individual is their life partner...then, I will tell you what you should call their "union." It won't be marriage because they won't use the husband and wife termonoligy will they.
I strongly believe that is the real objection most folks have. And the gays...they want to push that marriage word to get some kind of silly respect or recognition that their life style is the same. It's not...and thats OK.

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Steve Walsh

1:45 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Ed - you are correct! The word does mean something & the word marriage should not be on any government certificate or form.
The "state" should only be officiating over & recognizing civil unions.
When you are born the state gives your parents a birth certificate - want to be baptized & get a baptismal certificate? - go to a church.
When you die, the state issues a death certificate. Want a ticket to heaven certificate? go to a church.
Want to be recognized by the sate as legally joined to another adult? Go get a civil union certificate from the sate. Want to be married? Go to a church.
I believe the solution would be simply for the state to stop using the word married in any documented at all.
The majority (but not all) of people that have a problem with gay marriage appear to also be religious & give the word marriage a religious meaning.
I believe the only solution is to get the government out of the marriage business.

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LMS

6:45 pm on Friday, August 3, 2012

I agree with what Steve Walsh says (again...sorry if I'm crowding you here, Mr. Walsh) but I want to underscore that same sex couples, in the spirit of full equality, should be able to be "married" by any and all churches willing to perform the ceremony. If a couple having a civil union via the state wants to then have a marriage ceremony performed by an Episcopal, UCC, UU, or other open and affirming denomination then that would be their right. If other people choose not to acknowledge that "marriage", that would be their right, just as the Catholic church currently doesn't acknowledge marriages not performed by a Catholic deacon or priest. The legal civil union would protect the couple's rights while the "marriage" would satisfy any applicable spiritual needs. The act of saying, "Oh yeah! Well, you're not REALLY married!" would satisfy others' need to be judgmental and interfering. It's a win/win.

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Logansdad

11:09 am on Monday, August 6, 2012

Edward: "And, I think they would get a bit more respect if they stopped insisting their union be called a marriage. Call it something else! Now, why is that important? Because words mean something. Marriage translates to husband and wife."

If those that believe marriage means something, I wish they would look at the institution of marriage. Does marriage mean something when it has a 50% success rate? Does it mean something when a man and a woman can get married and then divorced 72 hours later? Does it mean something when a man and a woman can get married and then divorced as many times as they wish?

For some reason those issues dont mean something to marriage but for some reason the gender of the people getting married is a big deal.

So which is more important people, who gets married or what marriage is supposed to be about - love and a life long commitment?

Julie

1:16 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

In 2012, it is TRULY sad to see businesses publically announcing their religious beliefs and “defining” what a family and marriage is composed of. Personally, I think it is just a media attention stunt by Chick-A-Fil to boost their sales. Just as people have a right to freedom of speech, people have a right to love who they choose to love. Gender does NOT define what is considered a family or marriage. Just like government and public schools are not allowed to discuss religion/religious views, nor should the business sector. In this day and age, with the way our economy is, unemployment, foreclosures, people committing mass murders, etc…. I truly believe we have BIGGER issues to focus on/about, other than people’s PERSONAL sexual preferences and relationships. I wish people and companies would use their, time, money & energy to support important issues instead of giving media attention and money to a company that discriminates and exploits a person’s sexuality to gain profit by the ignorance of others!

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Craver-Vii

1:49 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Julianne, I'm baffled by your comment. Why wouldn't Mr. Cathy also be entitled freedom of speech? Today we might say that Chick-Fil-A gained from the media attention, but he put his own neck on the chopping block and (standing on his moral principles) he took a risk that could have been disastrous. I don't see how you can call that exploitation. The family is the most basic building block of civilization, and the Bible has historically been the most relied upon guidebook for establishing, defining, and improving the family. And now we're supposed to discard thousands of years of foundation and dismiss it as ignorant? You have a right to your opinion, but opinions can be subject to errors. I challenge you to rethink your position, and measure your values on something higher than the whims of this crumbling, contemporary, pop-culture.

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Steve Walsh

2:29 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Craver-Vii - "The family is the most basic building block of civilization, and the Bible has historically been the most relied upon guidebook for establishing, defining, and improving the family"

**** except the "bible" has only been around since about 1545 so when you say "historically been the most relied upon" I assume you are disregarding the first the first 2.5 million years of human existence. Surely there were many families over the last couple million years that did just fine having other sources to establishing, defining, and improving the family.

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Julie

2:38 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Craver-Vii - Freedom of speech is a personal right but that does NOT give government, schools or the business sector that operates for the PUBLIC, to state their PERSONAL views while at the expense of minorities. I find it very interesting that you state the bible is a "guidebook" for establishing, defining, improving the family when the Bible clears states that we are all created in God's likeness (yes, that includes homosexuals). Who are WE, as mere human beings to judge others by their sexual preference when they are children of God too? Religion does NOT give a person/company the right to cast judgment. FYI - Religion also is subject to errors, kindly reference the Catholic priests who molested children (mostly boys)?? I truly believe and worship a higher power but I will NOT allow my religion to have dictatorship over my respect of mankind nor cast judgment on people based on their sexual preference. Per Mark 12:31 - ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Imagine how much better the world would be if people actually abided by this commandment. Leviticus 19:18 – “You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.” Now I actually question your religious beliefs/values when you reference the Bible yet, do not follow it’s preaching of love for mankind.

Steve Walsh

1:36 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Abe - you are the one missing the point
"What I was referring to is that just because a small minority of society would like us all to believe they are the true standard bearers of enlightened thought, and can redefine morality for the rest of us "backward thinking" folks, is a fallacy, once again disproved by yesterday's record breaking turnout."

-The true standard bearers of enlightened thought don't want to redefine morality for the rest of you. We just want you to stop trying to define morality for those of us who do not share your religious beliefs.
If you don't believe in marriage for gay people, fine. Then you (Abe specifically) should not get married if you are gay.
If you want to teach your kids the earth is only 10,000 years old.... fine with me. Just don't try to get that in the pubic schools.
The point is that YOU don't get to impose YOUR morality on the rest of us.
No one is trying to stop you from believing that gay marriage is wrong. We just want you to stop trying to prevent other people from exercising their rights that appear to be base on a different moral foundation than yours.

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abe carver

2:15 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Steve Walsh - How are the majority of us who are supportive of the historical and long standing (both secular and religious) definition of marriage simply trying to impose their own morality? If that is the case, then would you deny the status of marriage to any or all of the following: marriage between siblings, a marriage involving three or more persons, a marriage between a human and a member of another species or an inanimate object? If so, then you are just imposing YOUR own morality on them! Of course these scenarios hopefully appear ridiculous, but then again, not so long ago did the idea that marriage in our country could legally be considered anything other than between a man and a woman. Marriage by its very definition is an exclusive, not an inclusive institution; an institution that has both a secular component and a religious underpinning. Please stop trying to reinterpret it to fit your own divisive purposes and then pointing at the rest of us as being intolerant when we refuse to go along for the ride.

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Steve Walsh

2:43 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

abe carver:
14 minutes ago
"How are the majority of us who are supportive of the historical and long standing (both secular and religious) definition of marriage simply trying to impose their own morality?"
-Because you are attempting to prevent other people from from having a right other people have. You are not being forced to participate in anything but you are preventing others from participating.
Just because something is a historical and long standing (both secular and religious) definition does not make it a moral definition. (The prohibition of Inter-racial marriage would be a good example of this.)

"If that is the case, then would you deny the status of marriage to any or all of the following: marriage between siblings * yes for scientifically proven medical reasons
a marriage involving three or more persons *no
a marriage between a human and a member of another species or an inanimate object? * yes because there can be no consent by the other species or an inanimate object

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Logansdad

11:15 am on Monday, August 6, 2012

Abe: "Please stop trying to reinterpret it to fit your own divisive purposes and then pointing at the rest of us as being intolerant when we refuse to go along for the ride."

Today's definition of marriage has not alawys been a constant. Marriage has evolved. In the past a man was able to have multiple wives. Wives were treated as property. Most marriages were arranged.

Is that what you mean by traditional marriages.

The bible states marriage is about love and a life long commitment. Why is it that heterosexuals can redefine marriage to allow for a divorce but when it comes to who gets married, then redefining marriage is suddenly an issue?

Lea Anne Stoughton

1:51 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Steve Walsh: I agree about civil vs. religious marriage. I personally don't see what the big deal is about redefining marriage--words get redefined all the time. Christmas is a great example: it has increasingly secular meaning despite being at it's core a Christian holiday. But separating civil and religious unions for all people would eliminate a lot of this controversy.

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Steve Walsh

1:58 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Lea Ann - thanks & I agree it would be a better world if the word was allowed to be redefined.
Unfortunately some words' definitions are held so closely by some people that it's not worth the trouble to redefine them. A lot of Christians appear to have a big problem with the current use of "Christmas".

Steve Walsh

2:11 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Oh Abe.....
When you say "God's ordained definition of marriage." are you including:
Leviticus 20:10
Leviticus 20:18
Leviticus 20:14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
1 Timothy 5:11-12
- but I am only assuming Abe holds Judeo-Christian beliefs. If not, I apologize for jumping to that conclusion.

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abe carver

2:36 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Am I to assume that by failing to respond to my question as to what is, or should be, the basis for any boundaries applied to the institution of marriage, you hold to the “whatever Steve Walsh deems moral should be the new standard we all should go by” school of thought? Please enlighten us all as you seem to know more that thousands of years of tradition, secular governance and diverse religious principles. Teach of wise and all knowing Steven, we are so not worthy…truly we are not.

Steve Walsh

2:47 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

No Abe... you are to assume that I took a few minutes to carefully think out my reply to your questions.
abe carver:
"How are the majority of us who are supportive of the historical and long standing (both secular and religious) definition of marriage simply trying to impose their own morality?"
-Because you are attempting to prevent other people from from having a right other people have. You are not being forced to participate in anything but you are preventing others from participating.
Just because something is a historical and long standing (both secular and religious) definition does not make it a moral definition. (The prohibition of Inter-racial marriage would be a good example of this.)

"If that is the case, then would you deny the status of marriage to any or all of the following: marriage between siblings * yes for scientifically proven medical reasons
a marriage involving three or more persons *no
a marriage between a human and a member of another species or an inanimate object? * yes because there can be no consent by the other species or an inanimate object

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abe carver

3:41 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Just so we all understand, under Steve's Moral Code we are to: Have no problem with a marriage between siblings, if it was proven one or both parties are shown to be sterile, since procreation forms the medical basis for any objection if no independent moral guide can be cited to. Polygamy is also fine. However we should discriminate against species or objects because they cannot "consent"; as least as YOU or traditionalist have defined/understood that term.
Steve, to my knowledge no one is “preventing other people from having a right other people already have. Gay, Bi or Trans Steve can marry Ms. Wonderful, just as Straight Steve can marry Ms. Lucky Lady See both can marry individuals of the opposite gender, no rights denied and no special rights or status afforded. Problem solved. A prohibition on interracial marriage was never the “law of the land”, and was a deplorable but especially limited practice, both historically and geographically. Even so, such an ignorant limitation did not seek or achieve a fundamental change in the nature of marriage.

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Steve Walsh

4:25 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Abe: You are correct - siblings getting married if they can not reproduce? - Yep - then its none of my business regardless of my opinion on their union.
Polygamy between consenting adults? Yep. none of my business either. It does not harm me in any way (& lets be clear I am ok with one woman having more than one husband - equal rights for the ladies!)
& Really?! your argument is that I am in favor of discrimination against animals & and objects? I was giving you too much credit for being able to present a realistic argument. But yes, I believe it would be wrong to let anything (child, rock, dog, etc) enter into a marriage with a human that could not give it's consent for the union.
Consent being the understanding of the situation and the ability to communicate that understanding.
Obviously the issue is the fact that some American adults are not allowed to marry the person of their choice, in most states, but thanks for your childish example of how everyone's rights are the same.

Once again you are wrong. Where do you get your history?
Interracial marriage was against the law in 41 states. That is not "limited in practice, both historically and geographically"
right- it didn't change the nature of marriage unless you wanted to marry someone of a different race.
It didn't change anything for people wanting to marry in their same race. Just as allowing gay people to marry would not change anything for the straight people. - Thanks for making my point for me Abe.

Brandon Andreasen

3:00 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Why can't everyone just respect everyone else? What am I missing here? This is, and I cannot say this nicely I suppose, at the fault of certain religions for binding to people to what they have to think of as right and wrong. Religion so often doesn't leave for shades of gray.

Everyone arguing this is still missing the larger point: You shouldn't eat at Chik-Fil-A because the food is awful.

Also, to the people referencing the bible as a defense mechanism to protect free speech and the sanctity of marriage, the bible also outlined that it was okay to own slaves. So since everyone else is painting broad brush strokes here, so will I: "If you believe in the bible, you believe in slavery."

I'm out for the weekend, have fun everyone.

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Craver-Vii

3:09 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Brandon, the biblical concept of slavery typically had more to do with working off a debt. There is no provision in the Bible for kidnapping and relocating people so that they are completely without rights, worth or dignity. The slavery that America legally allowed in centuries past... is criminal in God's eyes. The slavery that goes on today (illegal human trafficking) is also wrong.

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Edward Andrysiak

4:04 pm on Friday, August 3, 2012

Brandon...this is the second time you went out of your way to blast the food. I am wondering if you have a hidden adgenda here. It would have "passed' the smell test if you said *you* didn't like the food but to say it is awful seems to indicate you have a desire to chase folks away.

Craver-Vii

3:04 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

The erosion of marriage does violence to our society, and that is not loving our neighbors. It is not kind or good to raise any kind of sinful behavior to the level of general approval.

The Word of God was around long before the 1500s. The church declared an official acceptance of which books were in & which weren't about a thousand years before that. But that was only a "stamp of approval." They were eventually revealed as the compilation of 66 books we see today, but some of the texts were around since the time of Moses. And before they were written, earliest man had a form of God's law from the prophets.

I have been quiet for a long time, and tolerant of many things, but when there is this kind of backlash because one man says he stands for traditional marriage, it disturbs me to the point where I cannot let my silence be confused for tacit approval.

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Steve Walsh

3:13 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Abe:
Sure... I will enlighten you since you ask.
What I (or you) deem moral is not the standard. The difference is you are trying to exclude people from living the way they wish even though it does not harm you or anyone else. I desire that all consenting adults to have equal rights under the laws of the United States (regardless of if I agree with them personally or not.)
Regarding " thousands of years of tradition, secular governance and diverse religious principles": You seem to be trying to make the point that for thousands of years the tradition has been one man & one woman defining marriage. You are incorrect. The bible has many examples of polygamy (see Genesis, Exodus, Dueteronomy, Judges, Kings, Chronicles, etc). Polygamy is currently legal in 47 countries. Your argument that thousands of years of history and tradition define marriage as you see it is incorrect.

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abe carver

4:02 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Steve: Because there have been cultural aberrations throughout history, none of which were clearly endorsed by God, these should now form the basis for our current treatment as to the ideal definition of marriage. So under Steve's Moral Code (as referenced earlier), history’s lowest common denominators would also be one of the standards to be applied. Very interesting, I am becoming more enlighten with every exchange.

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Steve Walsh

4:36 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Abe - We agree!
Our current treatment as to the ideal definition of marriage must not be held to historical cultural aberrations! I'm glad that you agree things change & the definition of marriage is one of them.
Besides.... one of those wacky marriage ideas ENDORSED BY GOD was that a dad could sell his daughter into slavery for the purpose of marriage - as long as she was 12 years old (hey... they had their limits) (Exodus is a real riot)

abe carver

4:48 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Steve, While I am glad you find parts of the Bible apparently so entertaining, I guess if your reading of the Bible in its totality leads you to believe that God endorses the selling of children into our modern understanding of what constitutes slavery, then I am even now more enlightened as to why you have no moral objections to incest or polygamy per Steve Walsh’s Moral Code.

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LMS

5:22 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

The Bible presents a snapshot of social mores acceptable at the various points of time when each particular section was written. Anyone basing their religious and moral compass on the Bible needs to concede either that society has progressed and will continue to progress since Biblical times, or cling to the idea that the social laws dictated by the Bible need to be taken literally. The problem with the latter is that *ALL* the social laws, including the ones mentioned by Steve Walsh as well as the many he did not mention, would need to be adhered to in order for this illogical stagnancy of moral social order to be argued. So which is it, Abe...The world has moved forward socially since Biblical times, or the world needs to adhere to *each and every* biblical directive? If you're going to argue that you and people who think exactly like you get to pick and choose which biblical directives to turn into legislature (separation of church and state anyone?), then please stop making embarrassing wisecracks about Steve Walsh's Moral Code. He's arguing for civil rights, fundamental to the U.S. You are arguing for...what? Legislating rights based on all/part of the Christian Bible? Steve Walsh makes perfect sense. Your stance is unclear.

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Steve Walsh

9:22 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

Abe:
I never said I did not have moral objections to anything that you mentioned.
My point is, in this country (& many other civilized countries) my (or your) moral objections are not the basis for laws. I personally object to several things that are legal in this country but I don't get to decide how other people get to live their lives (nor would I want to.) That's the difference you cant seem to understand Abe. You want YOUR views imposed on other people. All people have the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. If another person's pursuit of happiness does not harm you or anyone else in any way, you do not have a right to stop their pursuit.

Steve Walsh

9:33 pm on Thursday, August 2, 2012

anyway... Abe, I want to thank you for providing me with a stimulating day.
I am confident that I will not change your mind & you will not change mine. I do hope both our comments leave an impression on anyone who was undecided on this issue.
History has shown that justice falls on the side of people that want to extend rights to more people and not on the side of people that want to limit the rights of people.
Thanks again for your time today Abe. (I am not being sarcastic)

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Vanessa Holloway

3:30 pm on Friday, August 3, 2012

What is with this country? We can't give our opinions anymore? While I believe is probably wasn't the smartest thing for the President of Chick-fil-A to say, but he still has his right to his opinion. So what if he disagrees with gay relationships. He never said he wouldn't serve them.

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Kyle Hitchens

7:30 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012

You don't seem to be paying attention. It is not about one man's opinion. It is about the fact that his company gives MILLIONS of dollars to certified hate groups which demean, degrade, attempt to "cure", and even advocate the murder of gay people overseas in countries like Uganda. Many of us are disgusted by this immoral act of funding hatred and we choose to protest the company which is behind it. This is America, right?

Edward Andrysiak

4:20 pm on Friday, August 3, 2012

Well if we want to think that "it wasn't the smartest things for him to say"...what will these comments reflect tomorrow after the KISS IN is called into play by the gay community as a public show. You know, I respect their right to do that. I think it reflects bad judgement. I also think some will find certain aspects "chilling." Somehow two women kissing in public gives off one set of vibes but two men kinda is like running your fingers over frosted glass. I would expect a real explosion of views tomorrow! Those who think public shows of affection are in bad tases will have their tolerance levels tested.

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Kyle Hitchens

7:31 pm on Tuesday, August 7, 2012

This is the kind of homophobia gay people put up with everyday of their lives.

Mickey

10:19 am on Monday, August 6, 2012

Edward, that is what I'm afraid of.

I've seen pictures of the parades.. Cringe

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